The psychology of the mage

General feedback and discussion of the game.

Moderator: Forum Moderators

copschompinjs
Posts: 1
Joined: September 20th, 2007, 6:42 pm

The psychology of the mage

Post by copschompinjs »

I have long considered the psychology of the mage to be one of the most intriguing enigmas within Battle for Wesnoth. Being a scholar as well as a person of good taste in entertainment, you have no doubt noticed that most units stay the same alignment no matter how they are leveled. A horseman will be lawful even as a grand knight or paladin, an elf will be neutral, and an orc will always be chaotic. The mage, however, begins life as a law-abiding greenhorn, but advances to become either a lawful white mage or a neutral red mage! Given the rarity of the alignment shift, it is natural, then, for one to wonder what might be its genesis.

In investigating the psychology of the mage, it is natural to ask what it is that separates the alignment-shifting mage from the dyed-in-the-wool units. I think the most likely explanation is that the mage is an intellectual, whereas most of the units are trained warriors. Dwarvish fighters, elvish archers, walking dead, these guys are here to rock and roll. War is what they do and they do it well. The mage? Just graduated from Hogwarts, never seen blood in his life, much less a body, and still misses his mommy. Completely mentally unprepared for the rigor and horror of combat. Imagine what this tenderfooted innocent goes through when the enemy lays the charge down and those big numbers start floating up above the heads of the guys who are supposed to keep him safe behind the lines. Just as the British wore red coats to hide the blood, the mage has brown robes for a reason.

So what effect does this enforced coming of age have on our budding magus? This, I believe, is the fork in the road that separates the lawful white from the neutral red mage. The white mage sees his comrades under attack and is struck with a desire to help them, to shore up the system that keeps him safe. In short, he wants to do his part to keep things as they should be. Hence he goes forth, heals his friends, and smites the undead. The red mage, I fear, has staked a darker territory. The sight of his fallen friends fills him with an insatiable thirst for revenge. Law and order cease to be important to him, cast aside by his all-consuming need to exact vengeance upon those who have done him wrong. He rises above (or sinks below) order and chaos, devoted only to destruction. He devotes his life to harnessing more and more destructive eldritch energies, eventually becoming an elder mage and laying waste to vast swathes of countryside.

So, there you have it. The long-buried secret of why the red mage becomes neutral has been revealed. Hopefully now that the secret is out in the open the red magi will admit they need help and start seeking counseling for their pain.
User avatar
Ken_Oh
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 2178
Joined: February 6th, 2006, 4:03 am
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, USA

Post by Ken_Oh »

what a great story.
MDG
Posts: 378
Joined: June 7th, 2007, 11:18 am
Location: UK

Post by MDG »

Excellent first post. Welcome to the forums. :D
User avatar
cool evil
Posts: 244
Joined: September 13th, 2007, 10:56 pm

Post by cool evil »

Although this is very likely false if i were to argue, it is still a great post.
User avatar
Ken_Oh
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 2178
Joined: February 6th, 2006, 4:03 am
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, USA

Post by Ken_Oh »

I bet the real reason why those magi are neutral is because the devs didn't want a unit doing 20-4 during the day with magical accuracy.

While it's probably not good to think too hard about it, I have recently been trying to figure this out because I'm trying to figure out Wesnoth alignment for RPG reasons.

If I were to take a stab at the issue, I'd say it has to do more with being aloof from society, and somewhat elitist. While White Magi work for the benefit of society, the other mage lines are probably only out for their own quests, which may only mean the quest for more knowledge.
User avatar
Iris
Site Administrator
Posts: 6797
Joined: November 14th, 2006, 5:54 pm
Location: Chile
Contact:

Post by Iris »

I actually would like to know an answer to this dilemma for balancing a new Magi unit tree I am designing.
Author of the unofficial UtBS sequels Invasion from the Unknown and After the Storm.
Blarumyrran
Art Contributor
Posts: 1700
Joined: December 7th, 2006, 8:08 pm

Post by Blarumyrran »

as you might know, mage is both avestan and pre-avestan priest of persia, described in avesta as mainly being a caste of priests opposing zoroastrianism, showing that magi supporting zoroastrianism were rare at the time. this would also accord to red magi being more recruited/leveled in wesnoth, further implying them to be the pre-avestan magi, although this alone is of course not much of a proof; proof for what, you will see later. hence we may see the level 1 mage wearing a brown robe as a mage novice, (holding in his/her hand a scroll, which could be interpreted as a symbol of study and his/her current inexperience), thus a mage who has a choice. presuming a contact of wesnoth's magi with the historical persian magi, we may see a level 1 mage leveling up as a mage making his/her choice as to whether to accept zoroastrianism(which, by the way, simply had the former pantheon turned into "angels" and "demons" of Ahuramazda and Angra Mainyu), or retain former polytheism (the more conservative approach, obviously; reforms in state religion are rarely benefitial for the current priestly caste). back in wesnoth, we have white mage, and we have red mage. white mage is lawful, red mage is neutral. white mage has arcane damage, red mage has fire damage. now, we know level 1 mage had fire, not arcane damage, so obviously the more conservative approach would be to retain fire damage, similarly to the more conservative avestan magi approach being to retain their polytheism. on the same time, white mage has much less hp, implying loud and clear the fragility of the life of anyone daring to oppose the current religious system(compare to eg christian heretics like cathars, gnostics and protestants). then again, white mage has heal+8, symbolizing his/her appeal to the people, as people see in religious rebellion a solution to their anger towards all that is wrong with the current state of the country. white mage having an ankh suggest egyptian involvement; whether and how much was Zarathustra affected by egyptian religion, is unkown to me, however let us not forget that Amenhotep, an egyptian pharaoh who was most likely dead by zarathustra's time, was the first known ruler to replace polytheism with monotheism. so by now anyone should understand that red magi = conservatism = pre-avestan polytheistic magi, while white magi = liberalism/reformatory forces = avestan magi. and does it make sense that conservative is neutral, while reformatory is lawful? shouldnt it be the other way round? maybe. but let us, once again, look at later european history, as the developers of wesnoth (and thus implementors of the wesnothian magi) have probably almost all got some roots in medieval europe. especially lets concentrate on Dave, who probably was the one to create wesnothian magi. a christian (as i believe was said in an OT religion thread, now pruned), and an american (==> from europe, unless a negroid; and lets not think of the chance of Dave being from africa since it would ruin my beautiful logic here). american christians are, as we all know, almost wholly protestants. and when did protestantism rise? what was the event called? REFORMATION. once some protestants emigrated to america, the foundation of the society and _law_ was obviously affected by the religion and its history of being reformatory. meanwhile, the conservative red magi are neutral, because before Zarathustra did his reforms, the mage caste was not very organized, as polythistic systems often tend to be (due to in each city being a specific deity receiving more dedication than others). so they cant be lawful. on the same time, red magi cannot also also be chaotic, because priests were, and have been throughout most of th human history, a ruling class, justifing their power with their purported communication(not necessarily verbal) to divine beings. a chaotic ruler would mean an anarchy and generic lack of any kind of high civilization, which would conflict with the advanced state of the persian cities.

so there. proved. red magi = neutral; white magi = lawful.

OR

its just gameplay reasons.

dunno about you people, i like first option more :)
Last edited by Blarumyrran on September 25th, 2007, 4:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Iris
Site Administrator
Posts: 6797
Joined: November 14th, 2006, 5:54 pm
Location: Chile
Contact:

Post by Iris »

SyntaxError wrote:<bunch of non-capitalized text>
I wish I could understand the big ranting.
Author of the unofficial UtBS sequels Invasion from the Unknown and After the Storm.
Blarumyrran
Art Contributor
Posts: 1700
Joined: December 7th, 2006, 8:08 pm

Post by Blarumyrran »

Shadow Master wrote:
SyntaxError wrote:<bunch of non-capitalized text>
I wish I could understand the big ranting.
dont we all. because, you see, in that long rant is The Truth about the essence of magi.
User avatar
appleide
Posts: 1003
Joined: November 8th, 2003, 10:03 pm
Location: Sydney,OZ

Post by appleide »

copschompinjs and Syntax_Error. Nice. :D
Why did the fish laugh? Because the sea weed.
User avatar
Temuchin Khan
Posts: 1790
Joined: September 3rd, 2004, 6:35 pm
Location: Player 6 on the original Agaia map

Post by Temuchin Khan »

While not fully satisfied with either version, I think copschompinjs' version is more consistently developed.

Besides, one could object to Syntax Error's scheme by pointing out that Zoroastrianism also preserved the pre-Zoroastrian idea that fire was holy, and that if the White Mage were a convert to Zoroastrianism he would neither need nor want to give up his fire magic in exchange for arcane magic.
Blarumyrran
Art Contributor
Posts: 1700
Joined: December 7th, 2006, 8:08 pm

Post by Blarumyrran »

Temuchin Khan wrote:Besides, one could object to Syntax Error's scheme by pointing out that Zoroastrianism also preserved the pre-Zoroastrian idea that fire was holy, and that if the White Mage were a convert to Zoroastrianism he would neither need nor want to give up his fire magic in exchange for arcane magic.
one could reply that after zarathustra the importance of fire was increased, it was made more holy. so a white mage wields actually an "arcane/holy type of fire". :P
Lorbi
Posts: 162
Joined: May 21st, 2007, 6:35 am
Contact:

Post by Lorbi »

i prefer copschompinjs version over synerrs because i dont like religion being part of wesnoth.
and it seems more logic to me. i doubt that ever persian magers traveled somehow to the land of wesnoth
Blarumyrran
Art Contributor
Posts: 1700
Joined: December 7th, 2006, 8:08 pm

Post by Blarumyrran »

dammit... everyone seems to be against me on this one...
and it seems more logic to me.
my logic if obviously so high that most people never reach it 8)
ok actually its quite nonsensical, i admit, but making sense was never my purpose.
i doubt that ever persian magers traveled somehow to the land of wesnoth
you know that wasnt my point... i meant being based on the historical mages
User avatar
Jetrel
Posts: 7242
Joined: February 23rd, 2004, 3:36 am
Location: Midwest US

Post by Jetrel »

Magi are known for carrying gold, frankincense, and myrrh as gifts. :lol:
Post Reply